COE Connections Episode 10: Vinnie Pompei

Vinnie Pompei
I know I'm on the right side of history, but it's incredibly exhausting. To kind of navigate that. And knowing that it has significant impacts on children's lives, right, and significant impacts and their ability to learn to, to kind of be excited about their futures, to … wanting to live. I hate to say that, but you know that is what goes on in a lot of these young people's minds, because they're exhausted, too. They just want to be. Because they're a human. 

(intro music)

Rachel Haine-Schlagel
Welcome to COE Connections, the SDSU College of Education research and scholarship podcast series. I'm your host, Rachel Haine-Schlagel. I'm the Associate Dean for Research for the College of Education, and an Associate Professor of Child and Family Development at San Diego State University, a Hispanic serving institution on the land of the Kumeyaay. This is our fourth episode of the season, and I'm talking to day with Dr. Vinnie Pompei, who is an assistant professor in educational leadership at SDSU. Prior to joining SDSU, he spent nearly a decade as the national director of youth well being programming at the Human Rights Campaign, the nation's largest civil rights organization dedicated to LGBTQ equality. 

He is the lead author of numerous educational resources and policy documents, including the California LGBTQ Youth report advocating for LGBTQ students with disabilities and the LGBTQ section of the American School Counselor Association's national model. Vinnie has coauthored position statements on LGBTQ inclusion for the National Association of Secondary School Principals and the National Association of School Nurses. His latest work is Co-authoring a new book published by Corwin, titled, "Belonging in School: Creating a Place Where Kids Want to Learn and Teachers Want to Stay. He is also the principal investigator on a grant from the California Department of Education to help develop several online learning modules for educators on creating LGBTQ inclusive schools. 

Vinnie's dedication to creating safe inclusive and affirming schools has been acknowledged by President Obama, the US Department of Education, the National Education Association, the California PTA and KPBS. Welcome, Vinnie, and thank you so much for talking with me today.

Vinnie Pompei
Thank you, Rachel. I'm really happy to be here for this conversation.

Rachel Haine-Schlagel
Yeah, I think it's gonna be great. So I have a few questions for you today. And my first question is, why do you focus on what you do?

Vinnie Pompei
That's a great question. I think there are actually many layers, and there's a bit of a journey that got me to where I am. So I'm gonna do my best to kind of stitch the history together for you. Part of it is being a queer person myself and experiencing the world as a young person growing up in California. In a conservative area where being LGBTQ was was not accepted. I first actually realized that I was LGBTQ because I knew what homophobia was. I was in first grade. I developed a crush, like many of my peers and my crush was on another boy in my class. Homophobic slurs were rampant on the playground. I heard that at church. I heard it at my own dinner table.

And so that led to, in third grade, students started to realize I'm not expressing in ways that my male counterparts were. I wasn't expressing in ways that were aligned with societal expectations of being assigned male at birth, and so I experienced bullying and violence. Sometimes in front of educators, and educators really not advocating or intervening in ways that made a teachable moment. That led to experiencing violence in the school bathroom, where a group of fifth graders cornered me, held me upside down over the toilet, dunked my head in and began to continually flush the toilet. That led to continued bullying in my own home with my older brother, who would not only use slurs in the home, but also physical violence. So it was kind of like this childhood experience of never feeling safe. And so I really wasn't able to be a student. I was really managing my safety. That actually inspired me, though, to work in public education. And then I went for a credentialing program at Cal State, Long Beach.

I remember my professors not bringing up LGBTQ. So I kinda thought, if not me, then who? And so I remember my very first research paper in one of my courses I discussed the need to advocate for LGBTQ inclusive learning environments, and my professor wrote me a 2 page rebuttal. I never knew that a professor would take that much time. But it was a 2 page rebuttal of why it was problematic that we advocate for LGBTQ students. But hey, you know, I was gonna move forward. 

My first job as a teacher I had the butterflies in my stomach. Like most teachers when you enter this profession and within the first week I heard another student yell a homophobic slur across the courtyard, and I was standing next to four of my colleagues. I'm the new teacher. They're veterans, and no one said a word. And so I remember feeling this kind of internal instinct of … I don't know if it was an instinct. It was really this, this feeling of anxiety that took me right back to my childhood, and I remember looking to one of the teachers and saying, ‘Hey, are you gonna say something?’ And they said, ‘Well, you can if you want.’ And so I was receiving these messages that not much had changed when I was a child, and that led me to kind of slowly figuring out, how can I walk as a new educator, not tenured in an environment that really wasn't welcoming or accepting of an LGBTQ inclusive environment. How do I develop that within my classroom? 

Jump to my second position in another district as a teacher where some students asked if they can start a gender and sexuality alliance. This was four years on the job and within this time period my principal found out that I was gay. He pulled me in his office, he pulled a Bible out of his drawer and said, you only care about gay students, and I will not have a gay teacher working at this school. It began like that, but it ended up being a 45 min conversation where I was yelled at. I was threatened, and I remember walking out just being in shock of what just happened to me that led to me filing a formal complaint where there was an investigation, and where my principal was removed from that school.

As I was experiencing that, the superintendent of the school district said, ‘Hey, we realize that we need some professional learning, and we'd like you to lead it. So I started to train each of the the school sites at my district. Other districts found out and started to ask, ‘Hey, can we borrow Vinnie to come train at our school?’ That led to me, saying, ‘Hey, maybe we need to provide training and professional learning for educators more broadly.’ And so I help start a national conference on ending bullying in schools and preventing suicide, particularly as it relates to LGBTQ young people.

And in that work the Human Rights Campaign, the nation's largest civil rights organization dedicated to Lgbtq equality, saw the work that I was doing and recruited me to come create a national youth wellbeing program for them. And which I did. So I did that for a decade. And now I continue to advocate, to write, to research, to speak, to provide professional learning, to inspire, to motivate as much as I can, so that there is no child that ever has to experience what I experienced. That we can just focus on being students and not managing our safety. That we can be who we are, without judgment or ridicule. And that we can thrive. So that was a long answer, but I thought it was important to kind of share the stepping stones that led to today.

Rachel Haine-Schlagel 
Thank you so much, Vinnie, for just being so honest and sort of laying out how all of your different experiences from early childhood on have really sort of shaped the work that you do, and it sounds like you really draw from those experiences too. So as your motivaton for not wanting that those experiences to be happen for other kids. So thank you. That was wonderful. My second question is actually a request. Can you pick an example of the impact that your work has had and talk about that a little bit?

Vinnie Pompei
Yeah, it's really hard to quantify and impact you you certainly. I certainly function in a way that hey? If I'm going to put my effort in something. III want there to be a ripple effect, right? And I find that I'm always trying to find ways to have a more expansive ripple effect. And so I think what I'll share is — and and you mentioned this in my introduction — a couple of the publications that I created that were distributed across the country by professional associations connected to K-12 education. But I think one of the things that I'm most proud of was developing Time to Thrive. It is a national convening that's still taking place today, I'm happy to say. I said, ‘Hey I think, what educators are missing is professional learning, community and empowerment to do this work.’ I think that educators see a need for this work, but are often fearful. ‘I don't know how. Gosh! If I'm experiencing pushback, how do I respond? How do I develop a stronger why that we need to do this work?’ And so that was kind of the impetus of creating Time to Thrive, which is a national educator conference and youth serving professional conference that really gathers people together to learn and to be inspired, and to feel a sense of community.

I'm happy to say that many professional national associations saw what Time to Thrive was doing and wanted to be a part of it. So we ended up getting the National Education Association and the American Counseling Association to say, ‘Hey, can we put our logo on this’ and that was incredibly fulfilling. When I receive those emails and those calls like, ‘Hey, we love what you're doing. And we want to endorse it and be a part of it.’ The next year the National Association of Secondary School principals did the same. They're like, ‘Hey, can we be an official partner?’ And out of this conference a lot of collaborative things happened, and that led to a new project called Project Thrive where about 30 national professional associations came together. And we convened quarterly. Part of this was done during COVID. So part of this was done virtually, and some of it was done in person. 

But what we really did was, we leaned on one another. We supported one another. It was really about the Human Rights Campaign and queer based organizations shouldn't be the only voice advocating for LGBTQ inclusion. It really should be every single professional association connected to K-12 education, based on what the research continues to tell us that these students persistently and historically, are struggling — struggling so much so that it's leading to signal incredibly high rates of suicidal ideation and suicide attempts, right?

And so out of this work a couple of the organization said, ‘Hey, we're gonna create a position statement on LGBTQ inclusion. And Vinnie, can you and your team really help us put the research together?’ And so that became the work that I led in co-authoring the position statement on LGBTQ Inclusive Schools for the National Association of Secondary School Principals. Then the National Association of School Nurses stepped up and did the same at each of their annual convenings. They made a commitment that they were going to address LGBTQ inclusion and workshops, and main stage conversations. Each of the professional associations said, ‘Hey, we're gonna provide free ongoing professional learning webinars for our members.’ And so still to this day, when I see one of the professional associations really lifting up their voice and being visible… I certainly don't take credit for it, but I feel like I was part of this group of individuals who helped bring them together to, again inspire, empower them to be an important, vocal and visible voice in the essential need that each and every school and classroom across their country be LGBTQ inclusive and affirming.

Rachel Haine-Schlagel
So, Vinnie, as you're talking, that reminds me of the interactions that we had, I guess, about a year and a half ago, around an incident that happened at my children's elementary school, and I reached out to you to get some advice on how to advocate. There was a Drag Queen Story Hour that was scheduled for Hispanic Heritage Month to happen during school hours, and it was canceled because some parents were unhappy about that happening at school during school hours. And I really looked to you to get some guidance on what my messaging could be to school leadership, to get them to reconsider, and I really appreciated all the guidance that you gave me then. I don't know if I shared with you the outcome. 

The story hour was rescheduled outside of school hours. It was scheduled for the last day of the school year before winter break, Friday at 5 p.m.. And what was wonderful was that it was incredibly well-attended. So that ended up being a really positive experience for me. But just as you were talking about your own story, I remembered the support that you had given me personally.

Vinnie Pompei
And Rachel, I'm so glad that you brought that up and updated me because I didn't know what the outcome was. But what I really wanna do is use this moment to applaud you, to applaud you for saying, ‘Hey — something feels off, something feels wrong and I don't know if I fully have the skills and the capability to articulate what needs to be in a letter or in a conversation.’ But you leaned on others who might have a perspective that might be beneficial to what you were trying to accomplish, and that is, if anyone's listening, and you're not an expert. That's okay. If you were willing to lean on others to get guidance, to collaborate with others, the important thing is that we do speak up, and we speak out, because, look what happened as a result. Had you not advocated for this change and the cancellation were to stay, the message would that have sent to not only every student at that school, but every family and community member that LGBTQ individuals and their artistic expression is not a value here. Right? And you changed that narrative, and to the benefit of that entire community. So kudos to you and to other advocates out there who are willing to step up and speak out, so thank you for that. 

Rachel Haine-Schlagel
Well, thank you. I couldn't have done it without you. I feel very blessed to have such amazing colleagues who are experts in so many things that I can lean on. So now, I want to ask you, what do you struggle the most with in focusing on your area? I think I was hesitant because you talked so much about just the struggles you have personally driving your motivation for your work. But thinking about your professional life, ‘What it do you struggle with most?’

Vinnie Pompei
If my best friend and my sister were listening to this, they're going to hold me accountable and say, you better talk about your self care. I think many social justice advocates would likely agree that this work can be incredibly exhausting. But it's also passion-driven right? And so sometimes we forget that self care component. We can become overworked. We can internalize the vitriol that's out there. Related to social justice, racial equity, LGBTQ inclusion. And we're human right? And so, of course, that impacts us, even though in public we try to stay strong and have that smile and make sure that folks know that you are committed regardless to bigotry. Push back onpropaganda and misinformation that continue to circulate. 

That leads me, I think into one more thing that I wanna share, which is the growing levels of misinformation and propaganda related to LGBTQ identities, related to LGBTQ inclusion efforts. There were some things I remember growing up hearing that being LGBTQ, something learned that it was contagious, that it was synonymous with being, you know, sinful, and throw in any kind of you know pejorative term that you can think of. And some of those kind of concepts, those misconceptions and biased kind of beliefs have come back. There's been a resurgence of individuals saying things on social media and in state legislatures across the country that if a child sees an LGBTQ individual in a book, they are going to become LGBTQ. That talking about LGBTQ topics means something sexually explicit when it absolutely doesn't. These are identities. These don't represent sexual acts or sexual functions. 

That we should not be talking about these topics with students. Yet when I know — and researchers know that many LGBTQ young people become first aware that they’re LGBTQ in early elementary school. So I find it hard that I'm constantly trying to push forward. But I'm being pushed back against, in a sense. And so there's this kind of constant battle. I know this isn't what's happening in the world. But I feel like what Vinnie and other LGBTQ advocates are saying are then countered by an anti LGBTQ movement, saying that what we're saying is not true, right? And what I'm saying is actually rooted in well-established scientific research. What they are saying is focused on personally held beliefs, religious beliefs, or misconceptions.

I know I'm on the right side of history, but it's incredibly exhausting. To kind of navigate that. And knowing that it has significant impacts on children's lives, right, and significant impacts and their ability to learn to, to kind of be excited about their futures, to … wanting to live. I hate to say that, but you know that is what goes on in a lot of these young people's minds, because they're exhausted, too. They just want to be. Because they're a human. And and they have to live in an environment where their identity is not only not seen as a value, it's seen as a problem to get rid of. And that's heavy for any individual, but in particular, for someone who's young — a child, a young person.

Rachel Haine-Schlagel 
I've talked to a number of our faculty on this, podcast and there are many, many faculty whose lived experiences have really driven what they do now. So you're not unique in that way. And at the same time I think the nature of your work, I would imagine that emotional toll is just as you're describing it, is tremendous. And so, getting up in the morning and start doing your work, in addition to living your life, can be a big challenge. So I'm just impressed. I'm so grateful you're a part of our faculty. I would love to keep listening to you talk. I do have a last question that I wanna sort of wrap up with, and I think I can imagine your answer. But if I could wave kind of a magic wand and make the school environment better from your perspective, what would that look like?

Vinnie Pompei 
A magic wand question! That's great. If you gave me the gift of a magic wand to make schooling better. I have to say that I would make schools and communities, and where these young people live identity safe for all young people, all staff, all families and caregivers — to kinda make it the norm that our differences are viewed as an asset to the learning environment and to our communities, and that we view these differences as a value. You know, this would mean that we would treat one another with kindness and respect. That we would care for and take care of one another. We can get really close to this place that I'm talking about without this magic one you speak of. I think we have well established research to guide us there. The question is, do we have the wheel. Can we navigate successfully through the noise of this fake political debate that we're having. White supremacy? Other forms of bigotry and bias? Can we navigate through that? Are we willing to navigate through that?

That is a goal that I believe surrounds the work that I do each day. It's a part of my motivation that drives my commitment to continue to advocate, to advocate again, so that no child, no individual can't be who they are and can thrive.

Rachel Haine-Schlagel  
Well, I really appreciate the the incredible optimism that you brought to that answer that you truly believe we can get close. We don't need a magic wand — there's some things we need that we may not have or have yet, but that we can get there. So thank you so much, Vinnie, for sharing your experiences and your impact. And as I said before, I'm just so grateful that you're a part of our faculty and our community.

Vinnie Pompei 
Thank you so much, Rachel. I appreciate the opportunity to chat with you today.

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